Detlef Mertins: Did you subscribe to the modernist idea of doing away with streets, as Le Corbusier argued?
Bruce Graham: He was French. Just go to France and see the mess it is now—sadly, unfortunately.
DM: What kind of contribution can architects make to urbanism?
BG: In Chicago, different firms used to meet and talk about the city and what it needed. We used to have meetings in which the businessmen would come and listen to us. I think the whole of the South Side was started by a Chicago architect.
DM: You're clearly very conversant with the economics and politics of urban development. It's interesting that in your recollections you often focus on those things.
BG: Historically, it was always that way. Why were the great cathedrals built? Not because an architect wanted to build them but because the power of the church wanted to build them. It was the result of a political motive or social movement. As an architect you have to be aware of that and express it.
DM: Do you see the architect, then, as someone who participates in a larger conversation with all of those people, as someone who takes up the issues of the day and contributes to things that people are thinking about from many other perspectives?
BG: Yes, that's true. Architects should do that. I mean, that was the whole idea of the Bauhaus. That's what it was all about.
DM: When you're working on a specific site, designing a building or a complex of buildings for it, how do you think of its larger urban implications?
BG: It was one of the strengths of Chicago that the architects shared a vernacular with which to build the city. You can't say that of New York or San Francisco.
DM: Did SOM have planners working in the firm?
BG: Yes.
DM: Were they part of the studios in the same way that the engineers were?
BG: They had a separate group, but they would work on each project with each team just like an engineer would be part of the team.
DM: Do you think there are differences between modernism in America and in Europe?
BG: Yes. In London, I felt you had to integrate modem buildings into the historical character of the city. That would be true of most cities in Europe. In Chicago there was virtually nothing there to start with except a lake and a city plan by Daniel Burnham. That was true of America as a whole. Now it's become a little different. As time passes, some cities have developed a character, which is very satisfactory, in my mind. Minnesota is very different than Chicago and has some very nice buildings. Milwaukee is very different than Chicago. Even the Midwest has a certain kind of unity, but the East Coast doesn't.
A few cities like Philadelphia have preserved their character. I'm a trustee of the University of Pennsylvania, and Gary Hack, who's a planner and the Dean of the Graduate School of Fine Arts, has done a terrific job of planning around the University itself. He's now been appointed to head the planning commission for the City of Philadelphia. That kind of thing is unusual. When I went to school there, all the wealthy people lived in the suburbs because the downtown was so bad. That's turned around. The character of the city is preserved, and the city is safer and easier to use.
DM: What was your experience there as a student?
BG: I liked it. My brother was going to medical school there. I like Philadelphia. I like the university. You could study in many other fields too. History, for instance, was terrific, and you could go to the engineering school.
DM: I understand that as a student you were outspoken at times. What was going on then that you didn't like?
BG: The students were very disgusted with our teachers at Penn. Some of them were old-fashioned and didn't understand modern architecture. They also talked to us as if we were children. Many of us were GIs and so were older. I had already gone to the Case School of Engineering and knew something about building. Dr. Roth, who taught history at Penn, was terrific. I really learned a lot from him, but not from others. The whole school was dissatisfied, so the administration did a review and brought some new faculty in, including Holmes Perkins. That's when Kahn really got involved.
DM: What kind of work did you do as a student? Was it modernist or traditional?
BG: Modernist. We still had the old École des Beaux Arts system, but it was then abandoned, not just at Penn but at all the other schools too.
DM: Did you have any experiences with Louis Kahn? Was he of any importance to you?
BG: Yes, I did. He was a very generous man and, I thought, a fantastic architect. Oskar Stonorov from his office asked me to work there. For three weeks, I helped with some drawings, for nothing. In those days, students did that. Mies used to pay a dollar an hour. He was very generous.
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